“The German Army, contrary to its traditions, was now deep in politics, especially in Bavaria, where at last it had established a government to its liking. To further its conservative views it gave the soldiers courses of "political instruction," in one of which Adolf Hitler was an attentive pupil. One day, according to his own story, he intervened during a lecture in which someone had said a good work for the Jews. His anti-Semitic harangue apparently so please his superior officers, a Bildungsoffizier, whose main task was to combat dangerous ideas-pacifism, socialism, democracy; such was the Army's conception of its role in the democratic Republic it had sworn to serve.

This was an important break for Hitler, the first recognition he had won in the field of politics he was now trying to enter....

...Such was the weird assortment of misfits who founded National Socialism, who unknowingly began to shape a movement which in thirteen years would sweep the country, the strongest in Europe, and bring to Germany its Third Reich. The confused locksmith Drexler provided the kernel, the drunken poet Eckart some of the “spiritual” foundation, the economic crank Drexler what passed as an ideology, the homosexual Roehm the support of the Army and the war veterans, but it was now the former tramp, Adolf Hitler, not quite thirty-one and utterly unknown, who took the lead in building up what had been no more than a back-room debating society into what would soon become a formidable political party. ….(Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 35-39)"

Counter protesters roar into Berkeley
Carolyn Jones, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, March 23, 2008

(03-22) 15:20 PDT BERKELEY -- Berkeley hosted a decidedly different kind of protest Saturday when about 400 flag-waving, leather-clad, pro-troops bikers roared into town to show their support for an often besieged Marine recruiting center in the city.

"I'm here because I support my Marines," said Steve Bosshard, a retired San Francisco police officer who came from Santa Rosa. "I don't like what Berkeley's done. They don't realize the effect it has on the troops."

The center was criticized by the Berkeley City Council and is often the target of protests.

Saturday's demonstrators, most of whom were veterans or families of those currently in the military, said they were protesting the council's decision in February to waive the amplified-sound permit fees and provide reserved parking in front of the Marines' office for Code Pink, an anti-war group that stages protests at the center.

Saturday's protesters gathered at the recruiting station and sang the Marine Corps hymn and national anthem, revved their motorcycles and waved flags. A small contingent from Code Pink stood on the fringes, having mostly peaceful conversations with their pro-Marine counterparts.

There were no arrests by Saturday afternoon.

The demonstrators said they plan to boycott Berkeley businesses until the council is recalled, apologizes or grants free permits to a pro-troop group.

The group that organized the protest, Eagles Up, had to pay for their permit.

The gathering outnumbered Wednesday's anti-war demonstration at the center, marking the fifth anniversary of the Iraq war.

"We're going to stop giving any business to Berkeley and Alameda County, said Brian Dennard, a San Diego businessman at Saturday's rally. "We want to bankrupt this city."

Berkeley merchants said they weren't overly fazed by the boycott.

"It hasn't affected me at all, not one bit," said Tim Barnard, owner of Pie in the Sky pizza restaurant on Center Street. "We've been busy the whole time, even during the Code Pink protests."

Eagles Up members said they were going to collect their receipts from the weekend and present them to Berkeley City Hall, demonstrating how much money the city lost due to the boycott.

Berkeley residents making their way through the flag-waving crowd were mostly unimpressed by the protest.

"I'm against the war, but this is fine," said Davis Beekman of Berkeley. "It's a spectacle, a good photo op."

Recent Cal graduate Brendan Kussman said he was heartened by the protest.

"I think Code Pink has pissed off a lot of people," said Kussman, a theater major. "But overall, I think it's great we're in a country where people can come out and do this."

Most of the Blackwater guys are pretty hard. Well trained and often combat veterans.

I don't respect them, but I do fear them.

What sort of command structure do these Blackwater guys have?
Or are they more like engineers with black SUV's and lots of guns?

Blackwater Security International
Controversy: Mercenaries Training US Local Police Officers
By Jim Kouri Tuesday, April 8, 2008

There are many police and law enforcement officials who are concerned with the growing trend of using military-trained mercenaries to train and work with local police officers in the United States, but there are many who believe the events of September 11, 2001 dictate the need for a new paradigm.

For example, Kentucky’s Lexington Police Department contracted Blackwater Security International to provide what’s described as homeland security training. Meanwhile that city’s Mayor Jim Newberry and its chief of police Anthony Beatty refused free training provided by the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement federal program that prepares police officers to enforce immigration and border security as part of their duties.

Lexington is on the nation’s list of so-called Sanctuary Cities in which police officers are prohibited from working with ICE or Border Patrol agents in the United States. Critics are angry over the use of local tax dollars to hire Blackwater personnel to train the police.

But Lexington isn’t the only city using hired guns to help local police officers. In New Orleans, heavily armed operatives from the Blackwater private security firm, infamous for their work in Iraq, are openly patrolling the streets of that beleaguered city.

Some of the mercenaries were reportedly “deputized” by the Louisiana governor and were issued gold Louisiana State law enforcement badges to wear on their chests and Blackwater photo identification cards to be worn on their arms.

While they are working in Louisiana, Blackwater officials say they are on contract with the Department of Homeland Security and have been given the authority to use lethal force if necessary. Some of the mercenaries assigned to patrol the streets of New Orleans recently returned from Iraq, where they provided personal security details for the former head of the US occupation, L. Paul Bremer, and the former US ambassador to Iraq, John Negroponte.

Blackwater, which is based in North Carolina, is one of the leading private security companies providing security personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan. Along with other companies such as Wackenhut Security, Inc., it has several lucrative US government contracts and provides security services—including bodyguard work—for many senior US diplomats, foreign dignitaries and corporations.

The company received international exposure when several of its security officers were captured, tortured and killed in Fallujah; two of their charred bodies were hung from a bridge in March 2004.

Although many politicos are saying Blackwater is not performing police functions, their own statement seems to imply that they will provide whatever services a government—federal, state and local—desires.

“Man-made and natural disasters require an immediate robust response. Blackwater Worldwide’s extensive training facility and staff of former military and law enforcement professionals can provide the needed training and operational expertise to prepare security teams to effectively support state and federal emergency response units,” according to Blackwater’s mission statement.

“I’m troubled by the use of military personnel—whether they be US soldiers or private mercenaries—performing a police or law enforcement function. While they may be experts in fighting wars, they are not constrained by the US Constitution as to how they operate as cops,” said former NYPD detective and owner of FLT Security Services, Sidney Francis.

“Soldiers are soldiers and cops are cops. What’s next? Using smart bombs to crash into drug dens?” he asked.

Since its inception in 2003, the US Department of Homeland Security has faced significant challenges related to recruiting, retaining, and managing its workforce of over 170,000 employees.

Recently, the US Congress requested the Government Accountability Office to analyze DHS’s attrition, efforts to recruit and retain staff, use of external employees such as officers from private companies, and compliance with certain provisions of the Vacancies Reform Act, which requires agencies to report to Congress and the Comptroller General vacancies in certain presidentially-appointed positions requiring Senate confirmation.

While DHS’s overall attrition rate for permanent employees (excluding those in the Senior Executive Service and presidential appointments) declined from 8.4 percent in 2005 to 7.1 percent in 2006.

These rates, which were still above the roughly 4 percent average rate for all cabinet-level agencies, were affected by high levels of attrition (about 14-17 percent) among transportation security officers at DHS’s Transportation Security Administration. With the security officers excluded, DHS’s attrition rate was 3.3 percent.

DHS implemented agreements under the Intergovernmental Personnel Act, allowing nonfederal employees—private contractors—to be temporarily assigned to a federal agency to meet mission needs.

Blackwater using cache of AK-47s. Rifles given to sheriff in deal that skirts law
Joseph Neff, Staff WriterComment on this story

The private military company Blackwater has found an unusual way to skirt federal laws that prohibit private parties from buying automatic weapons. Blackwater bought 17 Romanian AK-47s and 17 Bushmasters, gave ownership of the guns to the Camden County sheriff and keeps most of the guns at Blackwater's armory in Moyock.

Tiny Camden County -- population 9,271 -- is one of the most peaceful in North Carolina. In the last 10 years, there have been two murders, three robberies and seven rapes reported. The sheriff has just 19 deputies.

Sheriff Tony Perry said his department has never used the 17 AK-47s outside of shooting practice at Blackwater. None of his 19 deputies are qualified to use the AK-47s, Perry said, and his department's need for automatic weapons is "very minimal."

In the summer of 2005, Blackwater CEO Gary Jackson signed two agreements with Maj. Jon Worthington of the Sheriff's Office. Worthington has worked as a firearms instructor for Blackwater.

"Blackwater has financed the purchase of 17 Romanian AK-47 rifles for the Camden County Sheriff's Office for use by Sheriff's Office," the agreement says. "The Camden County Sheriff's Office will have unlimited access to these rifles for training and qualification, and state of emergency use." Worthington and Jackson also signed an agreement for the purchase of 17 Bushmaster XM15 E2S automatic rifles.

Why did Blackwater strike this deal with the Camden County sheriff?

"Because they needed guns, I imagine," Jackson said.

Jackson said Blackwater was a good corporate citizen that provided equipment and training, often free, to local law enforcement.

Did Camden County need more automatic weapons than deputies?

"They are very well equipped," Jackson said.

Perry said he can't remember who came up with the idea for the weapons deal. He said the county was trying to put together a SWAT team at the time.

Not the best choice?

The AK-47 would be a poor choice of weapon for a SWAT team, said John Gnagey, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association, the national organization of SWAT officers.

As a combat weapon, the AK-47 is too large and powerful for SWAT teams, Gnagey said. It is rugged but relatively inaccurate.

"And there's the perception problem," Gnagey said. "Every terrorist attacking the U.S. is armed with AK-47s. "

Most SWAT teams use the H&K MP5 submachine gun or the Bushmaster M4, he said.

Under federal law, only government agencies -- military or law enforcement -- are allowed to acquire and possess automatic weapons. There is an exception for automatic weapons purchased before May 1986, when the law went into effect.

Firearms dealers are allowed, under strict conditions, to acquire an automatic weapon if they need to demonstrate the weapon to a police department or other government agency interested in buying the weapon.

Under federal law, it is illegal for a person to receive or possess an automatic weapon that is not registered to that person in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. The 34 weapons are registered to the Camden County sheriff. Seventeen AK-47s and five Bushmasters are stored and used at Blackwater. The other 12 Bushmasters are assigned to Camden County deputies, the sheriff said.

Weapons' use defended

Jackson, the Blackwater CEO, said he was not violating federal firearms law.

"I don't believe so," Jackson said. "As long as I have contracts, I can buy fully automatic weapons."

Jackson and Erik Prince, Blackwater's owner, said Blackwater used the AK-47s in training to familiarize police officers or members of the military with a foreign weapon that they might come across while making an arrest or on a battlefield.

Blackwater may also use the AK-47s to train military personnel from other countries who come to the United States for anti-terrorism training funded by the State Department, Prince and Jackson said.

"If the contract tells us to, we do it," Jackson said.

The agreement between Blackwater and the Sheriff's Office could be an illegal straw purchase, said Richard Myers, a law professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. A straw purchase, Myers said, is when one person fills out the federal firearms registration form to obtain a weapon for another person's use.

"I prosecuted several when I was with the U.S. attorney," Myers said. "If I were Blackwater's attorney, I would be concerned about whether this is a genuine purchase or a straw purchase."

Sheriff Perry said he did not consult a lawyer about the agreement until recently, when the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the FBI inquired about the arrangement. Last year two former Blackwater employees pleaded guilty to federal firearms violations. They were sentenced to probation on the condition that they assist federal investigators.

Perry said his department was cooperating fully.

"We're not a target," Perry said. "We may be a victim in it."

joseph.neff@newsobserver.com or (919) 829-4516

Armed free-corps (Freikorps) bans sprang up all over Germany and were secretly equipped by the Reishswehr (Regular Army). At first they mainly used to fight the Poles and the Balts on the disputed eastern frontiers, but soon they were backing plots for the overthrow of the republican regime. (Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 33)"

Many employers have for years had to call for the 'master in the house.' Now they are once again to be the 'master in the house.' " For the time being, business management was pleased. The generous contributions which so many employers had made to the National Socialist German Workers' Party were paying off. Yet for business to prosper a certain stability of society is necessary, and all through the spring and early summer law and order were crumbling in Germany as the frenzied brown-shirted gangs roamed the streets, arresting and beating up and sometimes murdering whomever they pleased while the police looked on without lifting a nightstick. The terror in the streets was not the result of the breakdown of the State's authority, as it had been in the French Revolution, but on the contrary was carried out with the encouragement and often on the orders of the State, whose authority in Germany had never been greater or more concentrated. Judges were intimidated; they were afraid for their lives if they convicted and sentenced a storm trooper even for cold-blooded murder. (Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 203)"

I would have a hard time finding anything wrong with this or an undercurrent issue except maybe with the Sheriffs office. Even then, doubtful. For one, Blackwater has in its arsenal, every make and model of automatic weapon under the sun worth owning. Even at its training facility, their arms room would rival some small countries. Their employee's carry them on more than 35 foreign lands.....17 Ak's and 5 Bushmasters....please....a drop in the bucket and hardly worth the press it got.

So why would they go through the trouble of a straw purchase if it's so insignificant and a duplicate effort? And if it's insignificant why are straw purchases illegal? The fact remains, "Blackwater has in its arsenal, every make and model of automatic weapon under the sun worth owning. "

1. I dont think it was a straw purchase.
2. We both know why straw purchases are illegal.

And yes they do. Point?

You made my points.

So, what if this single, almost insignificant purchase is simply the only one reported or discovered, and if fact, behind those closed doors a much higher percentage of that arms arsonel could be accounted for in similer fashion. That is, if anybody were ever to do an inventory/accounting.

Guess it's possible, Sky. Course, it seems a bit on the white knuckled side to assume it since there is as much legal reason the Sheriffs had those weapons as illegal. But, thats just me asking questions and not assuming the worst.

OK, since it's all about perspective, why not ask that same question backwards?
Why not assume the worst, because as you said, it's possible? Shouldn't this be investigated simply because it is as you said, possible? And if you are correct, wouldn't a complete investigation then make them clean and wholesome?

Maybe, maybe not. Just seems alot to do about nothing at all. There is a tendency for some to walk around and point at all the broken things (real or imagined) and scream "wrong, injustice, govenrment needs to fix it," ect...I just dont see it as a big deal.

Maybe, maybe not. Just seems alot to do about nothing at all. There is a tendency for some to walk around and point at all the broken things (real or imagined) and scream "wrong, injustice, govenrment needs to fix it," ect...I just dont see it as a big deal.

Feds raid Blackwater's armory in firearms probe
Associated Press
Published: Thursday June 26, 2008

Federal agents have raided an armory owned by security contractor Blackwater Worldwide.

The North Carolina-based company said the raid was part of an investigation into a deal that allowed a local sheriff's office to store high-powered assault rifles at the company's armory at its headquarters in Moyock.

Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell says that investigators with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives searched Blackwater's armory Tuesday.

She said she did not know whether the weapons in question were seized.

Tyrrell said ATF has known about the arrangement for a long time and that the company believes it is lawful and proper.

Both ATF and U.S. Attorney George Holding declined to comment.

Both ATF and U.S. Attorney George Holding declined to comment.

I didnt take that article you posted as "guilt has already been established" since nobody bothered to comment.


But, being always wrong, I can see that I would naturally be in error as your superior intellect would see things I couldnt possibly discern. Thank you for pointing out my weaknesses and Ill do my best to be like you now.

I didnt take that article you posted as "guilt has already been established" since nobody bothered to comment.


But, being always wrong, I can see that I would naturally be in error as your superior intellect would see things I couldnt possibly discern. Thank you for pointing out my weaknesses and Ill do my best to be like you now.

The quality or amount of itellect has zero to do with correctness.
Even very intelligent people wind up in prison.



Edit to add....


Please take a note Karen. That's what defensive posturing looks like in text format

You crack me up. Both of you. You would take a news article that plainly says nothing of any relevance and consider it absolute fact and pass judgement. A broad and sweeping comment that Conservative Republicans are ALWAYS wrong is like saying Liberals are always wrong. It isn't so but let's not worry about facts....lets stick to emotion and opinion.

I question the validity of an article that clearly states that there is nothing concrete to conclude from anything yet and Im making YOUR point? Again....WHAT point?

"Under federal law, it is illegal for a person to receive or possess an automatic weapon that is not registered to that person in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record.

The agreement between Blackwater and the Sheriff's Office could be [my emphasis] an illegal straw purchase, said Richard Myers, a law professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. A straw purchase, Myers said, is when one person fills out the federal firearms registration form to obtain a weapon for another person's use.

"I prosecuted several when I was with the U.S. attorney," Myers said. "If I were Blackwater's attorney, I would be concerned [my emphasis] about whether this is a genuine purchase or a straw purchase.

Sheriff Perry said he did not consult a lawyer about the agreement until recently, when the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the FBI inquired about the arrangement. Last year two former Blackwater employees pleaded guilty to federal firearms violations. They were sentenced to probation on the condition that they assist federal investigators."

One other murder deserves mention. At seven-twenty on the evening of June 30, Dr. Willi Schmid, the eminent music critic of the Muenchener Neueste Nachrichten, a leading Munich daily newspaper, was playing the cello in his study while his wife prepared supper and their three children, aged nine, eight and two, played in the living room of their apartment in the Schackstrasse in Munich. The doorbell rang, four S.S. men appeared and without explanation took Dr. Schmid away. Four days later his body was returned in a coffin with orders from the Gestapo not to open it in any circumstances. Dr. Willi Schmid, who had never participated in politics, had been mistaken by the S.S. thugs for Willi Schmidt, a local S.A. leader....
(Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 223)"

You said, "A broad and sweeping comment that Conservative Republicans are ALWAYS wrong is like saying Liberals are always wrong." No, it isn't like that at all because Liberals have a different ideology and are sometimes wrong, but Republican Conservatives are always wrong in the fields I listed. The reason for this is that Republican political ideology is unsound thus the policies they promote propagate the same errors. Making the wrong assumptions results in the wrong reasoned conclusion--this excludes conclusions based on guessing and mere accident.

Well, this is an old troll maneuver

You may be qualified to make the assertion that Conservatives are always wrong in the fields listed...or not. Dont know you but....are you not basing that statement on opinion?

You may be qualified to make the assertion that Conservatives are always wrong in the fields listed...or not. Dont know you but....are you not basing that statement on opinion?

Thats original. You ever see me reject anything when people put up reasonable discussion or debate? I may not agree, but I do pay attention, offer perspective, and even accept some thinking, coupled with facts. I dont play troll games but I do ask questions and ask for facts. Or....am I not supposed to do that?

The way I see it is people here can throw stuff up and it could say..."ALL CONSERVATIVES ARE NATZIS. People would gladly agree because many hate conservative thinking as well as the conservatives themselves. Is it correct? Nope. Is it factual? Nope. I just dont buy into every cut and paste job I see and I dont care what paper it comes out of. I dont assume guilt. I dont assume all liberals are idiots. Quite the opposite actually. I actually do question things from both sides. If that doesnt bang your shutters...well....fire me.

Opinion based on much personal observation and critical thinking with questions and answers.
Do not make the mistake of writing the guy off simply becuse you don't agree, or if in fact you fit the demographic.
because the FACT is, he just might be correct. And like the rest of us, you have been wrong before. (ever vote for GWB?)

I stand in amazement as you listen to yourself talk. I dont think I have written anyone off. It would appear that my questions as to truth and fact are in FACT...curiousity and interest to find truth. Truth I am learning by definition, is not the same thing as fact. Nor do I profess correctness in every topic I broach. I do have an insite some broader by personal experience than many and in some situations, know with absolute certainty of which I speak. Still then, much of what I have seen is still slanted with perspective so it becomes a matter of not what I saw but how I perceieved it. Asking questions about perspective is a way of determining truth and fact in a comparitive.

Personally, I don't have much agreement with anything conservative. I do though have to admit that some very nice and likable people have opinions I absolutely disagree with. The only time I can't tollerate a conservative individual, is when he gets in my face with it. Which, based on personal observation, happens quite a bit more on an individual basis than vice versa.
In other words, I, and my fellow Liberals tend to be more tollerant of YOUR view point. WE don't generally refer to you as anti-american, anti-patriot, terrorist, commie scum. We just call you stupid, narrow minded, loud, ignorant hillbilly, who after nearly 150 years, still can't accept that the south lost the civil war!

Doubt you ever saw the tags you stated below ever coming out of my thought process. You say "your" and "you" like I am that which you say because I happen to have a conservative value base. And while I do believe in things you cannot by FACT, refute....it does not by sheer belief on your part nulify that which I do believe. Anti-american, anti-patriot, terrorist, commie scum? How many times have I said that questioning the way you are led IS patriotic and American regardless of what I think. And to many, the civil war was about slavery. To those who really uderstand it, it was as much to do with states rights. And while your catagorization of Conservatives is pretty off base, so is your impression of my thought process.

In spite of our heated argument I do see a little glimmer of light of agreement, but it could be an illusion on my part. For example, your comment "...are you not basing that statement on opinion?" I interpret as either a genuine effort to make a distinction between, statements, facts, opinion, and knowledge, or a debating tactic to introduce philosophical epistemological skepticism and proclaim that the we cannot know anything therefore making my statements mere opinion. We all know everyone has opinions. I can take the discussion in either direction. But let me warn you that taking the position that knowledge is not possible is a losing "proposition."

Valid comment the last one about knowledge since the establishment of fact is as often based on perspective as it is truth. Truth and fact seem at odds. I asked if your basis of thought was built on what you personally believe or what is generally accepted as fact. We will leave the truth out for the moment. There will always exist the lawyers element of doubt when taking issue with anything.

Did I see John shoot Mary?
Yes?
Did you actually SEE the bullet leave his gun and enter Mary's body?
No, I did not.
So therefore it may have been a bullet from another gun????
I get your point and it is true. One can question it to infinity when at some point, a reasonable conclusion can be reached. But, in this case...Im not at the conclusion point. Maybe because of perspective. Maybe because I have actually been in that particular arms room and perceived it to be within the law. But perception is not always reality...is it.

So I shall take you comment as sincere, "I may not agree, but I do pay attention, offer perspective, and even accept some thinking, coupled with facts. I dont play troll games but I do ask questions and ask for facts. Or....am I not supposed to do that?"

I would categorize my comments as "knowledge" and not mere opinion because they meet three criteria of knowledge:

1. X is true. X representing any fact or statement of fact which is actually the case. But because X is true doesn't mean I "know" it. So a cut and paste job could be either true of false.
2. I believe that X is true. Mere belief is not sufficient to have knowledge but it a necessary condition for the possibility of knowing. I may state that the Martian sky is red and it may be true, but I must believe it to be red for it to be knowledge.
3. I must have a reason (inductive or deductive) or evidence (not necessarily defined by one scientific school of "proof" or evidence) for believing that X is true. I can't guess the the Martian sky is red. It may be true that the Martian sky is red, meeting the first criterion of knowledge, but guessing that it is red is a bet and not knowledge.

I wouldn't call all Republican conservatives Nazis. Nazism is very specific historical political ideology and there are only a few Nazis in the Republican party. I would instead call many Republican conservatives "fascists" and I have posted a massive body of work defining "fascism." (INDEX OF POSTS ON THE CRITIQUE OF FASCISM)
The vast majority of Republicans and many Democrats are what I would categorize as "Proto-Fascists" or "pseudo-fascists"(Rush, Newspeak & Fascism: An Exegesis, Transmitters of Fascism by David Neiwert). I use the terms 'Republican' and 'Democrats' only because this is a political forum. However, the truth is America is a Fascist Torture State and a fascist State is also a fascist society.

It was an analogy to draw out a thought process but I get your point. A point I dont agree with, but a good point none the less. I tend to take things down to individual levels. While America may have elements of fascism, I am unconvinced that it is a society rather than an element of leadership at the time it exists. Episodic if you will. Allowing that I have been a soldier under many Presidents, you see an ebb and flow of what you speak, but never a sheer dominace one way or the other. It may lean in that direction right now, but I dont see an overwhelming agreement with it so therefore have a difficult time casting all of society into the same bucket. And as long as we have a reasonable amount of the population in disagreement with the leadership, in this case....more than reasonable...I dont see society as a whole in that bucket.
No, we don't agree in absolutes. Quite possibly my experiences and perpectives may not be or may more defined than your own from "eyes on" perspective. Still, in the end, each of us will lean in the direction that we believe. In this, we lean in different directions.

You're not fired.

Certified Infidel.
Spy in Training
Deceptive Right Wing Shame to his Mother
Considered a "TROLL" by leading experts on this board.
Vile, Evil, money grubbing criminal with a gun

Because mr Abell, in these environs your statement.....




Has a ring of truth to it. Which, from your perspective, is quite deliberate.
Though intended to be tongue in cheek, it's also largly true, you and I both know it.

You are and will remain my ideological opposite. That doesn't mean i don't respect you. In fact, because i do, I will call your bull crap for what it is, when ever you attempt to carpet a path way with it, which lately has been pretty much constant. Nearly everything you have posted has been of a contradictory nature. That also, I don't believe to be anything less than deliberate. You're having fun with us. Just as you did before you came to this forum, and it continues today. I personally don't mind at all. You keep us on our toes because you have the ability and experience to not be a typical "talking points" troll.

Keep in mind Mr Abell, that I like you personally. However, around here and beyond that you truly are the infidel.

So, the conversation has once again become something a bit personal in nature. I quess that can't be avoided. I would ask though (again) for you to consider that which you don't agree with, giving extra weight to the fact that politically speaking, over the course of this decade, you have been mistaken, and even wrong before. You have stated that you came here to learn. I do hope that's still true.




Edit to add.....


I'm absolutely not saying you're stupid. I'm saying that this time, concerning Iraqi oil, that you're wrong!

I'm absolutely not saying you're stupid. I'm saying that this time, concerning Iraqi oil, that you're wrong!

Seymour Hersh: "Executive Assassination Ring" Answered to Cheney, Had No Congressional Oversight
By Eric Black, MinnPost.com. Posted March 12, 2009.

Investigative journalist Sy Hersh dropped a bombshell revelation on Monday about international killings ordered under Bush.

At a “Great Conversations” event at the University of Minnesota [Monday] legendary investigative reporter Seymour Hersh may have made a little more news than he intended by talking about new alleged instances of domestic spying by the CIA, and about an ongoing covert military operation that he called an “executive assassination ring.”

Hersh spoke with great confidence about these findings from his current reporting, which he hasn’t written about yet.

In an email exchange afterward, Hersh said that his statements were “an honest response to a question” from the event’s moderator, U of M Political Scientist Larry Jacobs and “not something I wanted to dwell about in public.”

Hersh didn’t take back the statements, which he said arise from reporting he is doing for a book, but that it might be a year or two before he has what he needs on the topic to be “effective ... that is, empirical, for even the most skeptical.”

The evening of great conversation, featuring Walter Mondale and Hersh, moderated by Jacobs and titled “America’s Constitutional Crisis,” looked to be a mostly historical review of events that have tested our Constitution, by a journalist and a high government officials who had experience with many of the crises.

And it was mostly historical, and a great conversation, in which Hersh and Mondale talked about the patterns by which presidents seem to get intoxicated by executive power, frustrated by the limitations on that power from Congress and the public, drawn into improper covert actions that exceed their constitutional powers, in the belief that they can get results and will never be found out. Despite a few references to the Founding Fathers, the history was mostly recent, starting with the Vietnam War with much of it arising from the George W. Bush administration, which both men roundly denounced.

At the end of one answer by Hersh about how these things tend to happen, Jacobs asked: “And do they continue to happen to this day?”

Replied Hersh:

“Yuh. After 9/11, I haven’t written about this yet, but the Central Intelligence Agency was very deeply involved in domestic activities against people they thought to be enemies of the state. Without any legal authority for it. They haven’t been called on it yet. That does happen.

"Right now, today, there was a story in the New York Times that if you read it carefully mentioned something known as the Joint Special Operations Command -- JSOC it’s called. It is a special wing of our special operations community that is set up independently. They do not report to anybody, except in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. They did not report to the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff or to Mr. [Robert] Gates, the secretary of defense. They reported directly to him. ...

"Congress has no oversight of it. It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on. Just today in the Times there was a story that its leaders, a three star admiral named [William H.] McRaven, ordered a stop to it because there were so many collateral deaths.

"Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us.

"It’s complicated because the guys doing it are not murderers, and yet they are committing what we would normally call murder. It’s a very complicated issue. Because they are young men that went into the Special Forces. The Delta Forces you’ve heard about. Navy Seal teams. Highly specialized.

"In many cases, they were the best and the brightest. Really, no exaggerations. Really fine guys that went in to do the kind of necessary jobs that they think you need to do to protect America. And then they find themselves torturing people.

"I’ve had people say to me -- five years ago, I had one say: ‘What do you call it when you interrogate somebody and you leave them bleeding and they don’t get any medical committee and two days later he dies. Is that murder? What happens if I get before a committee.?’

"But they’re not gonna get before a committee.”

Hersh, the best-known investigative reporter of his generation, writes about these kinds of issues for The New Yorker. He has written often about JSOC, including, last July that:

“Under the Bush Administration’s interpretation of the law, clandestine military activities, unlike covert C.I.A. operations, do not need to be depicted in a Finding, because the President has a constitutional right to command combat forces in the field without congressional interference.”

Napolitano stands by DHS report conclusion that right-wing extremist groups are targeting vets.
April 19th, 2009
thinkprogress.org

Last week, the Department of Homeland Security released a report finding that right-wing extremist groups inside the United States may be gaining new recruits and that they are targeting veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. Since then, conservative critics — led by Fox News — have been up in arms, with some claiming that the report shows that the Obama administration is waging a “war on veterans.” Today on CNN, DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano said that she regrets the politicization of the report that has ensued, but stands by its conclusion:

NAPOLITANO: Here is the important point. The report is not saying that veterans are extremists. Far from it. What it is saying is returning veterans are targets of right-wing extremist groups that are trying to recruit those to commit violent acts within the country. We want to do all we can to prevent that.

“The German Army, contrary to its traditions, was now deep in politics, especially in Bavaria, where at last it had established a government to its liking. To further its conservative views it gave the soldiers courses of "political instruction," in one of which Adolf Hitler was an attentive pupil. One day, according to his own story, he intervened during a lecture in which someone had said a good work for the Jews. His anti-Semitic harangue apparently so please his superior officers, a Bildungsoffizier, whose main task was to combat dangerous ideas-pacifism, socialism, democracy; such was the Army's conception of its role in the democratic Republic it had sworn to serve.

This was an important break for Hitler, the first recognition he had won in the field of politics he was now trying to enter....

...Such was the weird assortment of misfits who founded National Socialism, who unknowingly began to shape a movement which in thirteen years would sweep the country, the strongest in Europe, and bring to Germany its Third Reich. The confused locksmith Drexler provided the kernel, the drunken poet Eckart some of the “spiritual” foundation, the economic crank Drexler what passed as an ideology, the homosexual Roehm the support of the Army and the war veterans, but it was now the former tramp, Adolf Hitler, not quite thirty-one and utterly unknown, who took the lead in building up what had been no more than a back-room debating society into what would soon become a formidable political party. ….(Rise and Fall of [b]The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 35-39)"

Some 'neighborhood watch': Forde's Minuteman spinoff outfit was about 'starting a revolution against the government'
Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Remember how all those right-wing pundits proclaimed the Minutemen as being just like a neighborhood watch? Michelle Malkin called it "the mother of all neighborhood watches." Lou Dobbs labeled it "this country's biggest neighborhood watch program". Bill O'Reilly declared: "Talking Points applauds the Minutemen. They are in the great tradition of neighborhood watch groups."

Boy, that sure is some neighborhood watch:


Accused ringleader Shawna Forde told her family in recent months that she had begun recruiting members of the Aryan Nations and that she planned to begin robbing drug-cartel leaders, her brother Merrill Metzger said Monday in a telephone interview from Redding, Calif.

"She was talking about starting a revolution against the United States government," he said.



Here is a recording of the 911 call made by the victim who survived -- the mother of 9-year-old Brisenia Flores, who was shot "two or three times" while her mother lay nearby. As she's on the phone, you can hear the killers return and open fire on her again, and hear her return fire:


Courtesy Arizona Star

The accused shooter, Jason Eugene Bush, was charged Friday in the 1997 murder of a sleeping, homeless Hispanic man in Wenatchee, Wash.
"Bush has had long-standing ties to the Aryan Nations," Sgt. John Kruse of the Wenatchee police wrote in a statement filed in Chelan County Superior Court.

The Pima County Sheriff's Department arrested Forde, Bush and Arivaca resident Albert Robert Gaxiola on Friday and accused them of killing Raul Flores, 29, and his daughter Brisenia, 9, during a home invasion. Flores' wife was injured during the attack and returned fire, wounding Bush, investigators said.

Forde, 41, who has lived primarily in Everett, Wash., was the executive director of Minutemen American Defense, and she had named Bush the "operations director" for the group's border-watch activities along the Arizona-Mexico border.

... Forde's brother, Metzger, worked for the organization at its inception years ago, but he quit, he said, "when it started to get too deep."

He and other family members grew suspicious of Forde and started talking to police about her after her husband was shot in their Everett home in December.

That's why, Metzger said, he had an audio recorder running when she visited his Northern California home in early May.

"She sat right here on my couch and told me that she was going to start an underground militia. This militia was going to start robbing drug-cartel dealers — rob them and steal their money or drugs," Metzger said.

... Investigators think the May 30 robbery was intended to be the first in a series of such attacks intended to fund the border-watch group and a new venture, O'Connor said. Forde planned on starting a business of helping free kidnap victims in other countries, he said.

She also spoke of the venture to her brother, he said.

"She was telling me that they were going to start some sort of militia that was going to go overseas and aid and abet those who are kidnapped. She said she was going to go to Syria," he said.



I warned some time back that this was precisely the arc of flight that the Minuteman movement was taking:

This is, after all, an organization that has indicated it intends to expand its purview. And the concept of the Minutemen as a right-wing citizen vigilante force has uses well beyond even border patrols. These endorsements may wind up giving the Minutemen more than their 15 seconds of fame -- and that could be a problem for many years to come.


The problem, as always, is its inherent vigilantism:

The reality-based picture of the Minutemen that's emerging is not of a friendly "neighborhood watch" for the border, but of a chaotic collection of hatemongers who seem intent on a kind of populist mob rule fueled by angry paranoia. It becomes a cover not for law and order, but for the ugliest kind of brutal authoritarianism.

That, in fact, is the face that vigilantism has always revealed eventually, even in Montana. As the history of the vigilantes revealed later, their early "victories" over predators like Henry Plummer soon gave way to a vicious lawlessness in which people were summarily hanged not just for horse theft but for drunken misbehavior or breaking out of a jail.

... You see, vigilantism always claims to be about law and order and preserving "traditional values." It is always, in the end, about the brutal imposition of mob rule without regard to the humanity of its targets. The proof, in the end, lies in the strange fruit it inevitably produces.

Officials See Rise In Militia Groups Across US
EILEEN SULLIVAN | 08/12/09 03:50 AM | AP

WASHINGTON — Militia groups with gripes against the government are regrouping across the country and could grow rapidly, according to an organization that tracks such trends.

The stress of a poor economy and a liberal administration led by a black president are among the causes for the recent rise, the report from the Southern Poverty Law Center says. Conspiracy theories about a secret Mexican plan to reclaim the Southwest are also growing amid the public debate about illegal immigration.

Bart McEntire, a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told SPLC researchers that this is the most growth he's seen in more than a decade.

"All it's lacking is a spark," McEntire said in the report.

It's reminiscent of what was seen in the 1990s – right-wing militias, people ideologically against paying taxes and so-called "sovereign citizens" are popping up in large numbers, according to the report to be released Wednesday. The SPLC is a nonprofit civil rights group that, among other activities, investigates hate groups.

Last October, someone from the Ohio Militia posted a recruiting video on YouTube, billed as a "wake-up call" for America. It's been viewed more than 60,000 times.

"Things are bad, things are real bad, and it's going to be a lot worse," said the man on the video, who did not give his name. "Our country is in peril."

The man is holding an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, and he encourages viewers to buy one.

While anti-government sentiment has been on the rise over the last two years, there aren't as many threats and violent acts at this point as there were in the 1990s, according to the report. That movement bore the likes of Timothy McVeigh, who in 1995 blew up a federal building in Oklahoma City and killed 168 people.

But McEntire fears it's only a matter of time.

These militias are concentrated in the Midwest, Pacific Northwest and the Deep South, according to Mark Potok, an SPLC staff director who co-wrote the report. Recruiting videos and other outreach on the Internet are on the rise, he said, and researchers from his center found at least 50 new groups in the last few months.

The militia movement of the 1990s gained traction with growing concerns about gun control, environmental laws and anything perceived as liberal government meddling.

The spark for that movement came in 1992 with an FBI standoff with white separatist Randall Weaver at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. Weaver's wife and son were killed by an FBI sniper. And in 1993, a 52-day standoff between federal agents and the Branch Davidian cult in Waco, Texas, resulted in nearly 80 deaths. These events rallied more people who became convinced that the government would murder its own citizens to promote its liberal agenda.

Now officials are seeing a new generation of activists, according to the report. The law center spotlights Edward Koernke, a Michigan man who hosts an Internet radio show about militias. His father, Mark, was a major figure in the 1990s militia movement and served six years in prison for charges including assaulting police.

Last year, officials warned about an increase in activity from militias in a five-year threat projection by the Homeland Security Department.

"White supremacists and militias are more violent and thus more likely to conduct mass-casualty attacks on the scale of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing," the threat projection said.

A series of domestic terrorism incidents over the past year have not been directly tied to organized militias, but the rhetoric behind some of the crimes are similar with that of the militia movement. For instance, the man charged with the April killings of three Pittsburgh police officers posted some of his views online. Richard Andrew Poplawski wrote that U.S. troops could be used against American citizens, and he thinks a gun ban could be coming.

The FBI's assistant director for counterterrorism, Michael Heimbach, said that law enforcement officials need to identify people who go beyond hateful rhetoric and decide to commit violent acts and crimes. Heimbach said one of the bigger challenges is identifying the lone-wolf offenders.

One alleged example of a lone-wolf offender is the 88-year-old man charged in the June shooting death of a guard at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

The storm troopers, outfitted in brown uniforms, were recruited largely from the freebooters of the free corps and placed under the command of Johann Ulrich Klintzich, an aide of the notorious Captain Ehrhardt, who had recently been released from imprisonment in connection with the murder of Erzberger. These uniformed rowdies, not content to keep order at Nazi meetings, soon took to breaking up those of the other parties. Once in 1921 Hitler personally led his storm troopers in an attack on a meeting which was to be addressed by a Bavarian federalist by the name of Ballerstedt, who received a beating. For this Hitler was sentenced to three months in jail, one of which he served. This was his first experience in jail and he emerged from it somewhat of a martyr and more popular than ever. "It's all right," Hitler boasted to the police. "We got what we wanted. Ballerstedt did not speak." As Hitler had told an audience some months before, "The National Socialist Movement will in the future ruthlessly prevent-if necessary by force-all meetings or lectures that are likely to distract the minds of our fellow countrymen.""' (Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 45)"


“Erzberger had been murdered in August 1921. In June 1922, there was an attempt to assassinate Philip Scheidemann, the Socialist who had proclaimed the Republic. The same month, June 24, Foreign Minister Rathenau was shot dead in the street. In all three cases the assassins had been men of the extreme Right. (Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 51)"

“The administrators of the law became one of the centers of the counterrevolution, perverting justice for reactionary political ends…Franz L. Neumann declared, “that political justice is the blackest page in the life of the German Republic…Yet hundreds of German liberals were sentenced to long prison terms on charges of treason because they revealed or denounced in the press or by speech the Army’s constant violations of the Versailles Treaty. The treason laws were ruthlessly applied to the supporters of the Republic; those of the Right who tried to overthrow it, as Adolf Hitler was soon to learn, got off either free or with the lightest sentences. Even the assassins, if they were of the Right and their victims democrats, were leniently treated by the courts or, as often happened, helped to escape from the custody of the courts by Army officers and right-wing extremists. ” (Rise and Fall of The Third Reich, Simon and Schuster 1960, William L. Shirer, pp. 60-61)

Healthcare opponent punches 65-year-old supporter
September 2nd, 2009
rawstory.com

For political drama, there's always Florida.

A 65-year-old man cheering healthcare reform in Miami was punched in the face and knocked to the ground by an opponent of a public health plan, according to a reporter at the scene. The rally took place outside a Great Miami Chamber of Commerce event where Florida Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL - below right) was speaking.

"Luis Perrero of Coral Gables was standing among about 40 Democratic activists and union workers when a man in a Ford pick-up truck pulled up to the rally at Jungle Island and began arguing with the crowd," the Herald's Tolouse Oloronippa blogged Wednesday. "The man, who only gave his first name as Raul, said Perrero called him a Spanish curse word. He punched Perrero in the face. Perrero fell to the ground and lay motionless for a few minutes."

"I'm amazed the way this has become such a politicized issue,'' Perrero told Oloronippa. "It shows that people who are against the public option will resort to anything, including battery on a senior citizen to prevent healthcare reform.''

"It was totally uncalled for," Wilhelmina Ford, another public healthcare supporter quipped. "The guy may have had words with him but he didn't have to hit him in the face.''

Nelson, a conservative Democrat, has signaled his opposition to a public health plan. On Sunday, he said that healthcare reform would pass in some form -- but without a public option, which would allow the federal government to compete with private health insurers on price and likely drive down costs.

"The public option is only one of hundreds of issues concerned with health care reform," Nelson quipped. "Public option means different things to different people. Some people think of it as socialized medicine, but that type is not and has not ever been considered."

"Any public option will not pass," he added.

-John Byrne